Post 64-Thanksgiving

          This week, remember to give thanks unto the Lord, for He is good—all the time. And thank Him for family and friends, your job, your various situations, and for the heaven that is in our futures.

Post 63-God Wouldn't Go With His People

John wrote on 10/31/17 at 10:43

Hey Dana

            I can’t believe that tomorrow is the first of November. What happened to February, May, July and September? Carol’s office is still busy so I’m still helping out there, after my day job. In my day job, I stand all day long, and do a lot of walking. Whew!

            I’m still reading Revival by Martyn Lloyd-Jones. I’m close to finishing Chapter 12 “How Revival Comes.” Lloyd-Jones uses the reference of Exodus 33:4 to introduce this chapter,

⁴ And when the people heard this bad news, they mourned, and no one put on his ornaments. NKJV

            Lloyd-Jones believes this is one of the great chapters of the Bible because he says it shows the people in a time of “aridity and dryness, and then comes into a period of re-awakening and of revival.” (pg 148) God tells Moses to take the people and go into the promised land. He (God) would send an angel to wipe out the enemies:

 

33 Then the Lord said to Moses, “Leave this place, you and the people you brought up out of Egypt, and go up to the land I promised on oath to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, saying, ‘I will give it to your descendants.’ ² I will send an angel before you and drive out the Canaanites, Amorites, Hittites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites. ³ Go up to the land flowing with milk and honey. But I will not go with you, because you are a stiff-necked people and I might destroy you on the way.” Ex 33:1-3 NIV

 

            The interesting thing about this verse that I never noticed before is what else God says in it, “But I will not go with you, because you are a stiff-necked people and I might destroy you on the way.”  Whoa!! Is He angry, or what? “...and I might destroy you.” I’ve heard messages on how He’ll drive all –ites out and give the children of Israel the land of milk and honey, but He is not going with them. Why? Earlier the Israelites grumbled and complained and backslid. They became impatient and worshipped the golden calf and called on other gods, and as Lloyd-Jones goes on to say, “...they proceeded to open sin, and vice, and evil. They danced before it (the golden calf), and behaved themselves in an utterly and thoroughly disgraceful manner.” pgs149-150

            Then Jones fast forwards to today and how the Church is no different than those Israelites. “They do not believe in miracles, therefore, they say miracles did not happen and that these accounts are but myths....They deny the virgin birth...(and the) resurrection.” There are gross immoralities today. He ends with how in the church today there is: “False worship, false religion, false gods, and an appalling state of evil, sin, and vice.”

John continues on 11/8/2017

Hello again Dana.

             I like how Lloyd-Jones defines true repentance on page 156. He says

 

Repentance does not just mean that your are pulled up , that you are aware that things are not as they ought to be, and that there is something wrong. No, you go on to a realisation (sic) of the seriousness of what is wrong, and its appalling character....they (the children of Israel) hated the thing (the golden calf they made), they abominated it, they condemned themselves root and branch. Ah, but still more important than that, they realised the seriousness of their sin in God’s sight.”

 

            The realization of sin is what Lloyd-Jones considers to be the first stage of revival, without which there will be no revival.

            A few pages farther on, Lloyd-Jones goes even further to make sure the reader, and me, really understand repentance so they/me don’t try to take the easy way out and copout with just remorse. Again, talking about the Israelites, on page 159  he writes

 

“...they gave absolute proof that they had repented. And against this is one of the differences between remorse and repentance, because repentance is not just a passing, temporary feeling, repentance is something that is so profound that it affects a man’s will. As the Apostle again puts it in 2 Corinthians y it leads to action. ‘You put things right,’ says Paul, ‘you did something about it.’”

 

            Unfortunately, in all the churches we’ve  attended over the past approximately 20 years, we have only been in two where there was an altar call  “Altar call” some readers may be asking, what is an “altar call?” Calling out sin and bringing it face to face with the congregations has become a thing of the past. How often are conversations started that deal with sin, let alone preaching from the pulpit?  

            I went grocery shopping on my way home from work tonight. The market had a brand of potatoes that are locally grown and we know the farmer. His potatoes are of a good grade. They are fresh and firm, with few, if any, internal blemishes or rot. They  cook up well and are tasty in no matter what the form; although we prefer mashed. I bought two 10 pound bags, rather than the usual 50 pounds that we buy at this time of the year. Because the weather is cooling off and is going to get colder, I put them in the garage to keep as a cold storage bin, if you will.

            So earlier this evening, I went out to the garage to get some black raspberry, golden Guernsey ice cream from the freezer. We have a two car garage, a fairly large one. (I’m not deviating from my point. I’m almost there.) As soon as I opened the door from the house to the garage, I smelled it. A rotten smell, A rotten potato smell that I didn’t notice in the grocery store or in the car because the spuds were in the trunk. But to use a cliché, the rotten smell was plain-as–day as soon as I opened the door. I picked up the bag and looked through the netting, but couldn’t see it. But that stinking potato is in there. But I didn’t want to deal with it tonight. Open the bag. Dump all the contents out until I find the smelly, rotten one.

            This is how I believe the Church is generally reacting to sin in their congregations. As Lloyd-Jones says, that once they (church members and attendees) realize it (sin) they must act to get rid of it. That bag of potatoes looked fine on the outside, but something was rotten inside of it and it is literally stinking up the garage, and will ruin the entire bag of potatoes if I don’t dig it out of there.  The Church looks fine on the outside—nice clothes, good jobs, beautiful families but sin is lurking hidden from view and stinking up the Christian’s walk with God, keeping revival from coming. And only through going to God in real repentance, leading to “action”  to get right with God and man, will the Church get clean and will revival come.

            Or will—as the warnings of Amos and the other prophets went unheeded—today’s Church continue on its self-destructive path until God can stand the stink no longer and brings His judgment down on the Church? Remember in Revelation 3 what He told the angel of the church in Laodicea write?

 

15 ‘I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot; I wish that you were cold or hot. 16 So because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will [l]spit you out of My mouth. 17 Because you say, “I am rich, and have become wealthy, and have need of nothing,” and you do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked, 18 I advise you to buy from Me gold refined by fire so that you may become rich, and white garments so that you may clothe yourself, and that the shame of your nakedness will not be revealed; and eye salve to anoint your eyes so that you may see. 19 Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline; therefore be zealous and repent.... 22 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.’”

 

            Or, we, the Church, can continue to claim a form of Godliness but deny the power thereof, and continue to have a silence from God in our churches? 

John

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Dana Replied on Fri, Nov 10, 2017 at 9:13 AM

Hi John,

     While I see your point, the truth is that God did go with His people, He reaffirmed things with Joshua after Moses died, and wrought incredible victories in the promised land. Even when the Israelites became apostate and worse, worshipped foreign gods, God still had mercy upon them, and sent deliverers in the judges, and eventually David, and eventually Christ.

     But that said, God did not withhold judgment when His cup got full.  God neither winks at sin, nor excuses it. The severe judgments brought down upon His people were well deserved, but there was always left a remnant.  God, even though He sent Assyria and Babylon, and also Rome to execute judgment on Israel, still He didn’t pull a Sodom and Gomorrah on them and wipe them out altogether.

     You wrote:

 

            “Then Jones fast forwards to today and how the Church is no different than those Israelites. “They do not believe in miracles, therefore, they say miracles did not happen and that these accounts are but myths....They deny the virgin birth...(and the) resurrection.” There are gross immoralities today. He ends with how in the church today there is: “False worship, false religion, false gods, and an appalling state of evil, sin, and vice.””

 

     Allow me to track on something different for a second and provide a different view.  I would counter the idea that the “Church is no different than those Israelites,” might be lacking somewhat in clarity.  Now I’m in no position to argue with the good Rev. Dr. Lloyd-Jones, and I’m not.  But I would say that the church that doesn’t believe in the fundamentals of the faith, employs false worship, and worse, worships false gods, and openly and willingly participates in evil, sin and vice isn’t the church at all.  They are heathens masquerading as the Christian church.  If it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck….

     In Hebrews 5:9a the author says, speaking of Jesus, “And being made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey him….” (ESV)

     Did you catch that?  The author makes a clear and unmistakable correlation between salvation and obedience to Christ. 

     Jesus Himself said in Matthew 7:21-23

 

“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’ (ESV)

 

     Again obedience to the will of the Father is tied to the one who is genuinely Christ’s.

     In Luke 6:46, Jesus says further, “Why do you call me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do what I tell you?”  (ESV)

     The true Church isn’t apostate, but there are a lot of buildings with steeples and crosses and thousands of unregenerate people darkening their doors every Sunday pretending they are Christians.

     I knew a person once who was preparing to graduate college, and enter an industry which is often peopled by folks of questionable morality.  In one of last classes taken, it was taught by the professor that as soon as said graduates should, upon assuming a new position, quickly join a local church.  The rationale was that belonging to a church gave some credibility and acceptability to an already tarnished and suspect industry.  The students were told that they didn’t have to believe what the church taught, but that they should just attend regularly, drop some money in the plate and be seen doing it.

     Now by saying all this, I’m not giving the Church in this country a pass.  The American Christian church is lazy and apathetic, and needs to be awakened spiritually, but that is a far cry from heathenism mimicking piety.

     That said, I do think it’s time for a Colonel Travis at the Alamo moment, where a line is drawn in the sand, and everyone who claims to be a Christian gets on one side or the other. 

     Churches that “…do not believe in miracles, therefore, they say miracles did not happen and that these accounts are but myths....They deny the virgin birth...(and the) resurrection.” There are gross immoralities today. He ends with how in the church today there is: “False worship, false religion, false gods, and an appalling state of evil, sin, and vice….” aren’t part of the Christian Church at all.  They do not share in the inheritance of Christ, and on THAT DAY, will be told that they were never known, and to move on to a place more in line with their believing loyalty.

Dana

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John adds a short PS 11/11/17, Veterans Day, at 4:52 PM

Hey Dana

            I just watched the Turner Classic Movie Channel movie “Where Eagles Dare.”  It is one of my favorites, and TCM is playing military movies this weekend because it is Veterans Day weekend. “Where Eagles Dare” has good action, espionage, beautiful on-location winter photography, unexpected plot twists, and, of course, the good guys win. 

            But just a quick comment to your introductory sentence, “While I see your point, the truth is that God did go with His people....” In this chapter (12) my point is taken from a long chapter.  Lloyd-Jones leads up to his point on how revival comes by first showing how angry God was by telling His people He wouldn’t go with them because of their pervasive sins.  I couldn’t get into the entire chapter to explain everything he was writing about. But when God told the children of Israel that He wouldn’t go with them, that shocked them to awaken to the reality of their despicable situation and caused them to realize that situation was keeping them from God and His presence and caused them to repent. Remember the Prodigal Son?  In Luke 15 God tell us how when things got so bad for him

 

17 “When he came to his senses, he said, ‘How many of my father’s hired servants have food to spare, and here I am starving to death! 18 I will set out and go back to my father and say to him: Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you. 19 I am no longer worthy to be called your son; make me like one of your hired servants.’ 20 So he got up and went to his father.

 

            This is the point of the chapter, that unless we, the people of the Church, come to our senses and realize how our sins are keeping us from God and His presence, not only will God , I believe continue to withhold His presence, but He will not go with us.

Your foxhole buddy

John

 

 

 

 

Post 62-On Not Being Done With Amos…Yet

                                                        

Dana wrote on Wed, Nov 1, 2017 at 1:32 PM

Hi John,

      Amos is one of those “hard to put down” books.  Perhaps it is so because there are so many parallels to our world today, that there’s a dynamic relevance to the book. Who was it who said, “The more things change, the more things stay the same?”

     But since you brought the subject up, I found myself also “drawn” to it. Interesting isn’t it, that you are reading through the book as part of your devotional reading (I assume) and then upon bringing up aspects of it for the blog, I find myself into the book as well, and feeling that I’m supposed to be into it.  The Lord indeed does move mysteriously.

     Not wanting to turn the blog into a running commentary, there are some points in Amos worth a look and consideration.  One of the (I think) most missed parts of the book occurs in chapter 7.  Amos isn’t a wimpy prophet.  He’s about as blood and thunder as one gets. Yet in the midst of his serious castigations of Israel’s affluent, comfortable society, their oppression of the poor, their false piety, and their well-deserved coming judgment, it so quickly gets glossed over, if it is ever noticed at all, that Amos interceded for the people to whom he preached.

     In the opening verses of Amos chapter 7, the Bible says:

 

“This is what the Lord God showed me: behold, he was forming locusts when the latter growth was just beginning to sprout, and behold, it was the latter growth after the king's mowings. 2 When they had finished eating the grass of the land, I said,

“O Lord God, please forgive!
    How can Jacob stand?
    He is so small!”
3 The Lord relented concerning this:
    “It shall not be,” said the Lord.

4 This is what the Lord God showed me: behold, the Lord God was calling for a judgment by fire, and it devoured the great deep and was eating up the land. 5 Then I said,

“O Lord God, please cease!
    How can Jacob stand?
    He is so small!”
6 The Lord relented concerning this:
    “This also shall not be,” said the Lord God.”

 

     Notice that God Himself was in the initial stages of fierce judgment on the Northern Kingdom of Israel.  In Israeli agriculture in the 8th century BC there were two crops.  The “king’s mowings” were the first crops to be harvested.  All of that first harvest was to insure that the king, his administration and troops, etc., would be fed—kind of like our April 15th. 

     The second harvest was for the people’s food, and God inspires Amos to show that He raising up an army of locusts (once I read in a National Geographic article they were referred to as “the teeth of the wind”) to destroy the people’s food. 

     One can see the logic in this if they can get by the stark harshness of the intent of a Holy God against sin.  When you have a situation where people are starving while their leaders have plenty, it sets up a dangerous and potentially explosive atmosphere, which will lead to revolution and mass pandemonium if drastic action is not taken.  The potential for an adult portion of suffering and death would be great. The thought is almost unimaginable. But acting in almost Mosaic fashion, Amos intercedes for the people of Israel, and God listened.

     A second vision shows God preparing to incinerate the whole lot of Israel with unquenchable fire—think the love child of the fire-bombing of Dresden and Nagasaki, on steroids.  All joking aside, we’re talking about a fire so intense as to burn up “the great deep,” which I believe refers to an ocean or oceans—that’s one serious fire!

But Amos once again prayed for the people, and once again, God relented.  I don’t think Amos prayed for the people because they deserved it.  Clearly from this book, the people did not deserve it, but in the mind of the prophet some things are just too horrible to contemplate, even if deserved.

     We in this country are dancing ever so close to the same flame that God was kindling almost 800 years before Christ (Amos’ day) and reserving for His wayward people. Would that God would raise up prophets, not to just rail against sin, but that He would raise up men and women who have His ear, so to speak, who will proclaim His word truthfully and honestly, and who will cry out to Him on behalf of His wayward people in our own land. 

      Do you remember Brother Grazier’s teaching on Romans 1?  He taught that mankind is like a drowning man, who has been thrown a life preserver  attached to a rope stretching back to the one on the shore who threw it.  As the one on the shore tries to pull the man to safety, the drowning man resists and even struggles to propel himself farther out to sea.  Eventually the one on the shore gets tired of struggling with the one in the water who doesn’t want to be saved, and just lets go of the rope.

     In chapters 8 and 9 we get a vision of God in Romans 1 mode.   Judgment is imminent, and God has, in effect, let go of the rope.  He “gave them over….”   God eventually caters to even the wicked desires of sinful man.  We don’t want God or His people in our society (or Church) spoiling all our fun.  Morality, oh that’s so pre-first century.  We think we can do it better.  We don’t need God.  We have science, and technology, and psychology, and political correctness and and and and and and and….

     …And what does God do?  He lets out the rope, bit by bit, hand over hand; not all at once, but steadily.  We want to make Ishmael our brother, practically making “Islamophobia” a crime, and you get what happened in NYC yesterday when one of our   good “brother’s” used a truck to mow down people on a bike trail. 

     You want to and proceed to have sex with everything under the sun, animal, vegetable and mineral, and look what you get.  You get unwanted pregnancies, leading to a literal holocaust of unborn children which rivals Hitler’s and Stalin’s best efforts.  You get pedophilia on an unprecedented scale, touching the highest levels of administration in all the public endeavors with which we so fascinate ourselves. And what kind of fury will we see unleashed when all those violated children come of age and cannot contain the rage in their souls towards those who victimized them, and those who stood by and let it happen? You also get what we’re witnessing today; a generation of kids who have no concept of maleness or femaleness, or which they should aspire to be despite the plumbing with which they were born. And, you get aids for dessert. 

     And that’s just for starters; I could offer an entire dissertation concerning the evils prevalent in our society (and sometimes in our churches).  How about what the greedy and corrupt politicians, bankers and pin-striped bandits of all types have done to the economy and hence to all the people trying to make ends meet in said economy.  Does that remind anybody of Amos?  

     But, thankfully, what’s done in the dark, while we might miss it (or ignore it), there is an eye that misses nothing, and the One who possesses that eye still holds the rope. But He’s not obligated to hold it forever.  He brought the Assyrians down on the heads of the Northern Kingdom.  Who will He bring down on our wickedness?   What is the tipping point in our civilization, where God “…gives us over…?”  Our comfortable and   affluent churches need to be asking those questions.

     Notice too, that in the two last chapters, Amos doesn’t intercede on Israel’s behalf.  Do you reckon that he just gave up, or that perhaps God just stopped showing him the awful judgments to come so he would quit asking God to spare them?  Either way, we know what eventually happened; God used the brutal and bloodthirsty Assyrians to punish Israel and haul them away into captivity and dispersion.  These are issues with which I ever imagined we’d be faced. 

     As Habakkuk prayed, “O Lord, I have heard thy speech, and was afraid: O Lord, revive thy work in the midst of the years, in the midst of the years make known; in wrath remember mercy.”  (Hab. 3:2 KJV)

Your friend,

Dana

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John answered on 11/2/17 at 10:17 PM

Hey Dana

            Did you see the final game of the World Series? Even after the Astros got that 5 to nothing lead, I kept telling them it wasn’t enough against a team like the Dodgers. But it was!!! It is their first World Series title in the entire 55 years of the franchise history.

Now that was baseball.

            So, Amos again, eh? And here I thought we were “done” with Amos. I was reading your draft in bed last night and because of this direction, I got out a different Bible and started reading the notes and other comments. It was the NIV Essentials Study Bible published by Zondervan. On page 1100 was this comment:

 

Worst Of All Famines (Am 8:11) :In this chapter, God describes devastations that will fall on the Israelites if they do not repent. One judgment, however, stands out above all others. The nation will experience the silence of God, a famine of the words of the Lord. A few more prophets succeeded Amos, but after Malachi no prophet appeared in Israel for four centuries, unit, John the Baptist came to announce Jesus.

 

            I have written about something like this in other posts. I have noticed it as Carol and I have both visited many and also regularly attended a few churches over the past twenty plus years.  While the churches were evangelical, and the people were saved, and the pastors or teachers gave Biblical messages or teachings, something was missing, that is to say, Someone was missing. In the overwhelming majority of those churches (if not all) God rarely, if ever, showed up. His presence was missing. Many of our readers may think that a bit presumptuous. For those who don’t know what God’s presence is, have probably never felt it, or probably wouldn’t recognize it even if they did, I feel great sadness for them.  But I do know His presence which is why the words of Martyn Lloyd-Jones and King David the psalmist are so poignant.

            I’m still reading Martyn Lloyd-Jones book Revival. In Chapter 12 “How Revival Comes,” Lloyd-Jones references the following scripture

 

33 Then the Lord said to Moses, “Leave this place, you and the people you brought up out of Egypt, and go up to the land I promised on oath to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, saying, ‘I will give it to your descendants.’ ² I will send an angel before you and drive out the Canaanites, Amorites, Hittites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites. ³ Go up to the land flowing with milk and honey. But I will not go with you, because you are a stiff-necked people and I might destroy you on the way.” Ex 33:1-3 NIV

 

I never noticed it before, but God said He would send an angel before the children of Israel when they entered the promised land. And then He said, “But I will not go with you.” God was so upset with them, that He felt he might “destroy” them on the way there. Yes, further in this chapter we see a Jesus like characteristic in Moses—he intercedes for them,

 

15 Then Moses said to him, “If your Presence does not go with us, do not send us up from here. 16 How will anyone know that you are pleased with me and with your people unless you go with us? What else will distinguish me and your people from all the other people on the face of the earth?”

 

            I’m hoping to develop this idea of Lloyd-Jones in one of our forth coming posts. While I am not ashamed to say it, but I am ashamed of the sins that brought me to it, I can relate to David when, after Nathan confronted him, David cries out in Psalm 51

 

¹  Be gracious to me, O God, according to Your lovingkindness;
According to the greatness of Your compassion blot out my transgressions.
² Wash me thoroughly from my iniquity
And cleanse me from my sin.
³ For I know my transgressions,
And my sin is ever before me.... Create in me a clean heart, O God,
And renew a steadfast spirit within me.
¹¹ Do not cast me away from Your presence
And do not take Your Holy Spirit from me.
¹² Restore to me the joy of Your salvation....NASB

 

            How many times have I cried out like David, Oh Lord, do not cast me away from Your presence and do not take your Holy spirit from me. I can’t even imagine what that would be like.  

            Then Jones fast forwards to today and how the Church is no different than those Israelites. “They do not believe in miracles, therefore, they say miracles did not happen and that these accounts are but myths....They deny the virgin birth...(and the) resurrection.” There are gross immoralities today. He ends with how in the church today there is: “False worship, false religion, false gods, and an appalling state of evil, sin, and vice.” 

            This NIV Bible calls Amos the “Street-Corner Prophet” and tells of Amos warning, “God’s people cannot forever push God into a small corner of their lives....” Where is the Amos of our day willing to stand on the street corners and shout, “Israel, prepare to meet your God”?

            I’m glad you weren’t finished with Amos.

            Recognizing my sins and thankful for His mercy and forgiveness and presence, Your friend,

John

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Dana responded Fri, Nov 3, 2017 at 10:52 AM

Hey John,

     Yes, I watched game 7, and I was glad to see Houston win.  Houston got beat up pretty bad with the hurricane, and winning the World Series, I’m sure, was a boost to the old civic morale.  Also, the Dodgers are a baseball dynasty, and Houston was clearly the underdog; and it gives everyone hope when an underdog pulls off a big win.

     Here’s something to think about—to spring board off your idea.  You mentioned God’s sending an angel to go ahead of His people in the Exodus.  But it is not just an angel. Let’s look at Exodus 23:20:

“Behold, I send an angel before you to guard you on the way and to bring you to the place that I have prepared. ²¹ Pay careful attention to him and obey his voice; do not rebel against him, for he will not pardon your transgression, for my name is in him.” (ESV)

    

Did you catch that? “…for he will not pardon your transgression, for my name is in him.”  Angels do not have the capacity or the authority to forgive sins; that is reserved for God alone. 

 

     Also the “name” of God is synonymous with God Himself.  Proverbs 18:10 states: “The name of the Lord is a strong tower; the righteous man runs into it and is safe.” (ESV)
 

     I would propose that what that verse from Proverbs is actually saying is not that a righteous man who is in peril can just holler “Yahweh,” and magically his problems go away.  It is the LORD, or Yahweh himself who is the man’s deliverer and protector. In other words, the righteous man isn’t running to a name (how can one run to a name?), but to a person—God Himself. The “name” Yahweh is not an incantation that anyone can just whip out and say, then expect results, any more than if one says “abracadabra, please and thank you.”

     Given that the “name” of God is synonymous with His being, for the Holy Spirit to inspire Moses to write that the “angel” going before the Children of Israel has the capacity to forgive or not forgive sins, and has the “name” in him, means that He can be none other than God or the pre-incarnate Christ. 

     There is marked difference between “angels” and the One referred to in Scripture as the “angel of the LORD.” There are several “Theophanies” or “Christophonies” (appearances of God in human form or pre-incarnate appearances of Christ) cited in the Old Testament.  Genesis 18, Joshua 5:13-15, Judges 2, 6, and 13 to name a few passages.

     The passage in Judges 6:11-24 really demonstrates this, in that it is recorded that it is the “angel of the LORD” who appears to Gideon (verse 11), and then in verse 14 it says, “ And the Lord turned to him and said, ‘Go in this might of yours and save Israel from the hand of Midian; do not I send you?’”  (ESV) 

     Later in the same passage Gideon fears he will die because he saw God—people die when they see God—Exodus 33:20--and God assures him he will not die.  People do not die when they see angels.

     Now to your comment about God’s “presence” not being in certain churches you were visiting.  Seeing that God is omnipresent, that is everywhere at once, how could His presence not be there?  In Matthew 18:20, Jesus says: “For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I among them.”  You and Carol were in those particular churches and you were there in His name, so He was there. 

     Now I’m not trying to split hairs or one-up you with theological lingo, or just arguing for the sake of arguing.  Let’s dig deeper.  Since the omnipresent God was there, and, seeing that you and Carol were there for the right reasons (in His name) and that Jesus was there among you, why was “the presence” not perceptible?

     What is it that so clouds that which should be so prevalent?  There’s no hidden agenda here, and no following punch line coming—I’m serious when I ask that.  God was there—He couldn’t not be (I know, double negative—it’s intentional), and Christ was in the midst even if only you and Carol were there in His name, so why wasn’t the presence evident?  I’m not sure I can even begin to answer that question, but it I think it might speak to something more sinister.

     You’re sensitive to God’s presence, John, and to the moving of His Spirit as well—I know that, and we both know that the omnipresent God WAS there, so why did you not perceive it?  I’m not implying that you and/or Carol somehow missed it—no, I think something else might have been going on.  I’m not prepared to say exactly what as of yet, but I am throwing it out there for your consideration and perhaps further dialogue.                                                                   

     What do you think?

Your friend,

Dana

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John added on Friday 11/3/17

Hi Dana

            Of course we both know that omnipresence is one of the most often quoted (remembered?) attributes of God. So yes, while God was there, present  in all those twenty some churches, His palpable presence (or “perceptible” presence as you put it and which I can live with) in most cases wasn’t.  This is what I believe Martyn Lloyd-Jones is developing, explaining in Chapter 12 “How Revival Comes” and is what I’m working on now for, hopefully, next week.

            Although you do have me intrigued when you write

 

“I’m not sure I can even begin to answer that question, but it I think it might speak to something more sinister....no, I think something else might have been going on.  I’m not prepared to say exactly what as of yet, but I am throwing it out there for your consideration and perhaps further dialogue.  What do you think?”

                                                                                                                      

            Yes, I think we should pursue this idea see where this goes.

            Speaking of going, we’re on our way to the shore. Later.

John